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The Units
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19-Jun 2018 01:51 #1
Sesame
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The Units
It all happens because I wanted to make a A-versus-B chart. It took me days to finish Snooze . So the first thing is for me to ask how to post that huge spreadsheet here???

Then come some suggestions on individual units.
Hero: Heroes always suffer greater tolls than Dragons, and they are slower. They are unique for being Elite-hunters, but they are still the weakest overall. I suggest slightly lowering their cost to make them kind of a dispensable fighter.

Wolf Rider: They are too weak! Almost hopeless against Might and much more so against Faith. Being the sole Attacker of Nature, their role is pivotal. I suggest buffing them in expense of Cost/ Training Time, especially Training Time because Nature have the potency to guard them well.

Zealot: Didn't realize it was among the worst classed Attackers. Inquisitors are decent but they both have problems with Swordsmen. Most likely why I lost Sad .


Finally some general suggestions:
1) Units are TOO WELL BALANCED! Each unit is tactically different but strategically very similar. This is most troubling for Might and Nature where their 3 non-Elite units have a lot of overlap while two of them usually can already cover each other's weaknesses, not to mention mercenaries. It could be nice if one (or more) of them have some special uses.
It is also easy for PvP contestants to fight with a fixed, even unit-ratio lest their opponent should exploit any weakness. I understand that this can be fun in its own way but I personally don't like it too much as it binds all Units together without allowing their individual character to shine.

2) As a suggestion towards 1), I suggest a system of "Secondary Abilities": Each Unit has a handful of such upgrades unlockable in Library. Once unlocked, players can activate any one of them in Blacksmith. So, maybe Hero can have a lower cost, Wyvern Master can become scouts, Wolf Rider gain +50% bonus against Ranged Units, or Angel provide some aid to attacks.

Thank You
Last Edited: 01:56 19-Jun-18 by Sesame
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19-Jun 2018 12:26 #2
Sesame
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Re: The Units
3) I don't think it is necessary to forbid, for example, Range Combat from Generals. The way it is now discourages me from using these units. Since all such units from all Classes are one Attacker and one Defender, no army will be too OP. Neither will a Commander be too OP as long as there are an attack skill and a defence skill (like Fortifying).

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19-Jun 2018 22:56 #3
Fysh
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Re: The Units
"Originally Posted by Sesame"
3) I don't think it is necessary to forbid, for example, Range Combat from Generals. The way it is now discourages me from using these units. Since all such units from all Classes are one Attacker and one Defender, no army will be too OP. Neither will a Commander be too OP as long as there are an attack skill and a defence skill (like Fortifying).
 


Yes I agree. Just because a faction has both faction ranged off and def is not really a reason to deny them that skill. As Sesame says, it will usually be different commanders operating for attack or defence, so it wouldn't be overpowered.

The same is true for any of the factions and any of the skills. Allowing choice lets people experiment with different playstyles. At the end of the day, a commander only has a certain number of skill points, and it's expensive to keep changing. Just let us have the choice of them all!

For instance, Faith not having pathfinding, was one of the main reasons why I have not picked them. Pathfinding is such a great skill for secondary commanders when recruiting from mercenary camps, capturing altars, or collecting loot that has been left behind. Why should Faith be much worse at these things than other factions?
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19-Jun 2018 23:01 #4
ForumAdmin
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Re: The Units
Kudos for your effort! I have a huge file as well with all one-on-one calculations for not upgraded, somewhat upgraded, fully upgraded, with high morale, with good luck, etc. units. You can make screenshots of your spreadsheet (I assume it's Excel), and post it here. At the moment, there is no option to upload anything but images. Now…
Heroes are probably best pound-to-pound offensive units in the Game (with exception for Dragons) and they will beat man-o-mano (e.g. with the same Troops Power) practically any other unit or a group of units, including Dragons (unless Dragons got lucky on their first-round spell-casting). The only problem with Heroes, as you mentioned as well, they die more often (i.e. a lot) comparing to other Elite units (e.g. Dragons :rollingeyesHappy. For some people, it might not be easy, but you just have to accept for yourself that your troops will die, including Heroes. They don't cost a lot and don't take much time to train (especially later in the game), but it's just the feeling of losing your Elite Troops can be upsetting, and I totally understand it Happy

I think, Wolves are alright. They can lose one-on-one to any other unit that is strong against mounted troops or to a group with a unit who is very strong against mounted units (e.g. pikemen), but in general, they are OK - check the screenshots, that's counter-attacking incoming from the Might town. You do have to get a lot of Mercenaries for the Nature class of course. The same goes for Zealots – good against some units and not very good against others (e.g. Swordsmen).

In general, I think all troops are more or less balanced just alright. BUT your idea about secondary abilities is pretty cool – I'll put it down for later consideration mulling over. It might not be easy to come up with 25 unique special abilities for 25 different unit types… and they are going to be unique, they will probably have to be implement individually.
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19-Jun 2018 23:03 #5
ForumAdmin
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Re: The Units
As for Commanders... Hmm, I still want them to be not exactly the same - I'll think about it - one way is to have some unique skills relevant only to a particular Town Class and general skills available for everybody.

Thank You
Last Edited: 23:03 19-Jun-18 by ForumAdmin
If you have any questions or problems related to Undecima, do not hesitate to ask them on the forum, send me a private message, or email to support@undecima.com
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19-Jun 2018 23:22 #6
Fysh
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Re: The Units
Why not allow everyone to use the existing skills as they are, but introduce new class specific skills simply called, Magic, Might, Faith and Nature which only commanders of that class can access - the specific skills would probably only give +1% efficiency per skill rank, but it would allow for a lot of choices:

ie, do you go for maxing out your class skill and focusing mainly on class specific troops, or do you go more general skills, like Close Combat or Mounted? If your hero has enough points you can probably do both, but it's doubtful because you probably also want Willpower and First Aid too!

Adding more skill options, doesn't make commanders OP, it just gives more choice, and makes them dilute their precious skill points over a larger pool of useful skills!
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20-Jun 2018 02:18 #7
ForumAdmin
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Re: The Units
Hehe - that would be a bit too simple LOL

I think I need to revise some skills as well - like I have a feeling that nobody is investing skill points in Engineering or Logistics at all Rolling Eyes Dropping them completely would be a waste, so will have to think how to make it competitive if not with Willpower or First Aid, but at least with other skills.

The idea of not giving all skills to Commanders was to make them unique and more "theme"-oriented (i.e. no Pathfinding for defenders, and no Fortifying for attackers).

One unique skill for a Town Class is not good enough, I think I will workout a simple Skill Tree or maybe just think of a number of skills unique and relevant for each class.
If you have any questions or problems related to Undecima, do not hesitate to ask them on the forum, send me a private message, or email to support@undecima.com
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20-Jun 2018 02:36 #8
Fysh
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Re: The Units
"Originally Posted by ForumAdmin"
like I have a feeling that nobody is investing skill points in Engineering or Logistics at all Rolling Eyes Dropping them completely would be a waste, so will have to think how to make it competitive
 


I had a wizard with pathfinding and logistics as a loot collector on my last play through. Sending them with a few wyverns was really useful after dungeon clears.

Engineering could be useful in the future, depending on what else you intend adding to the game. Obviously engineering relies on siege weapons being useful first.
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20-Jun 2018 03:23 #9
Sesame
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Re: The Units
Here goes the spreadsheet.

image

Method:
1. Each Unit is set to fight against one another at 1200 total Power each
a. Defenders vs Defenders are omitted (marked as D) as they rarely happen anyway
2. "Troops left" are recorded in each cell
a. +ve implies the 'row-unit' win, -ve implies the 'column-unit' win
b. In case of a draw, the signed sum of the two "Troops left" is recorded
3. All Entries are divided by 1.2 to give a more instinctive base-10 looking
4. PvP average is calculated by averaging over all entries of a 'row-unit' against other train-able units. Similarly PvE average is that of Neutral units. They give a rough sense of relative strength.
Last Edited: 03:27 20-Jun-18 by Sesame
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20-Jun 2018 04:30 #10
Fysh
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Re: The Units
That's a really impressive looking spreadsheet! Go CrazyI assume you turned off the checkbox for Use Your Town Stats?

One thing that is immediately apparent, is that axeman do pretty badly overall, which is a big surprise. However, maybe in a comparison which matched troops against troops based on unit cost, they might do much better.

Very interesting! Well Done
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